Episode 1: Batman Returns

Our very first episode! The Society watches Batman Returns and discusses Danny DeVito's onesie, the merits of silly superhero movies, and the creative mastermind of... Jim Burton. SHUT UP!

Also, hi! We're Collin, Justin, and Zane, three friends who believe that talking about films can and should be accessible to everyone, and that thoughtful analysis doesn’t have to come exclusively from professional critics and film school grads. Welcome to our not-so-secret secret club: the Post-Credits Society.

Once we get off the ground, we'll incorporate your reviews and predictions into each episode, so jump right in! Who knows? We might feature your take on the show! Next time we'll be watching Palm Springs, available on Hulu, so tune in and we'll see you then!

Transcript

Justin 0:00

I'm not sure.

Collin 0:00

Can you imagine the amount of padding needed for someone not DeVito's size? Or are you talking about shortness?

Justin 0:07

I'm talking about his stature. I'm talking about.

Collin 0:11

Let's edit that out. Thank you.

Zane 0:13

Okay. Okay, let's get fucking serious. It's time to get serious. The tip, the tongue, the teeth... brr. mah. Okay.

Speaker 0:22

Selena, this is your mother. Call me. [intro music]

Zane 1:00

Welcome to the Post-Credits Society! A listener-powered movie club where your takes, your predictions, and your favorites help shape the conversation. Each week, we will pick a film to watch and reflect on what works and what doesn't, and what we took away from it. Think of it like a book club but for movies, with our whole Letterboxd community as part of the discussion. We believe that talking about films can and should be accessible to everyone, and that thoughtful analysis doesn't have to come exclusively from professional critics or film school grads. If you're looking for a place to discuss movies, refine your tastes, engage in different viewpoints, or just listen to some friends yapping, you have found a home here at the Society. My name is Zane, and I'm one of three amigos that are hosting this new podcast. I am currently living in Trenton, New Jersey. Not for much longer, uh, but I work in New York City, so I'm East Coast based. And uh I met these two jabronis in college.

Justin 2:04

Hi everyone. Uh my name's Justin Guglielmetti. Uh, I'm I live in LA. I am an actor. No, you've never seen me in anything. Uh that'll hopefully change one day. I'm not going to be judicious with my like breakdown and analysis of whatever we do here. I thought about that because I I do know, like, because I do work in the industry and I meet some people that we might be talking about here. Um, you know, do I need to be tactful? Sometimes probably yes. But um, but at this stage, I'm just gonna say fuck it and apply none of that. I pass it along to Colin now. The third white man in the troop.

Collin 2:46

Fantastic. So I'm Colin. I live in Kansas City, Missouri. So, right in the middle of these two fools on the East Coast and West Coast. And uh, I'm... a hesitant lawyer. That's what I do for the job. And we're gonna bring in that legal analysis in everything we do, so expect that.

All 3 3:07

[laughter]

Collin 3:11

And in true attorney fashion, I'm sipping on a bourbon as I do my work. So alcoholism, galore. Let's do it.

Zane 3:18

Let's do it, baby.

Collin 3:20

Okay, so how this will work is we will select a film to watch, and each week we'll ask the Society to predict what Justin, Zane, and I will think about the movie we're covering in the following week. And then before each episode, we're gonna share some of our favorite listener predictions before diving into the discussion.

Justin 3:40

And then afterwards, when we have some of our trademark uh brilliant highbrow banter "TM", uh, we're gonna shine what we call a Society Spotlight on some of our favorite Letterboxd reviews and then social media comments from our listeners. Uh which I believe what's our count right now? Uh zero. I think it's and then we're gonna wrap-up

Zane 4:00

not true, not true. We have three followers on Insta. We have three follow-

Justin 4:04

this is unbelievable. We're, we're, we're kicking off with infinity more than I predicted we would.

Zane 4:11

Ye ah, three infinities more.

Justin 4:14

And we're gonna wrap up after that with our final verdicts and then announce the next film suggested by you guys.

Zane 4:21

Alright, yes. So thank you for the wrap-up of the format. So uh things will look much the same from week to week, but they will look a little bit different for the first few episodes as we settle in and grow that very strong three into who knows. I mean, we could we could really shoot for even like 10 or like 20, even. I mean, that's really kind of moot moonshot there. In the meantime, we've lined up a handful of some of our personal favorite movies to start off the first few episodes. And today, I'm very proud to announce that we've selected one of my own, Tim Burton's Batman Returns, the 1992 Christmas classic that premiered in July of '92. Starring Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah, we'll get we'll get it, we'll get into it. I wanted to talk about it, but um, starring Michelle Pfeiffer, Danny DeVito, Christopher Walken, and Michael Keaton in that order, probably, because it feels like this is barely a Batman movie. But uh yeah, so that's that's the movie we're gonna talk about today.

Speaker 5:27

So obviously, for our first one here, instead of listener predictions, we're gonna be starting our first episode with personal predictions of you know what each of us, the co-hosts, thought about the movie. Now, this is a little unfair because I do know that Zayn suggested it and led it off with this is one of my all-time favorites. So what I think he's gonna say is that actually I was wrong, and I've seen the light. It's pretty garbage. Uh no, I know that this is this is one of one of Zane's favorites and remains so after the rewatch. And you know what? I think Colin, known connoisseur of kitschy shit, probably really enjoyed it as well. And I can see from it from the giggle on his face, he's like, Oh yeah, I had a great time.

Speaker 4 6:12

It's mostly the connoisseur of kitschy shit.

Speaker 2 6:16

That could be our first merch a t-shirt. Connoisseur of kitschy shit.

Speaker 4 6:22

Oh wow. We're already running through the ideas. We're gonna get those 20 followers by the end of the year for sure. They're gonna be decked out. Alright, so uh my prediction is the same on Zane. I know he adores this film, so we we're already starting off with some unfair uh info. I also happen to know that Justin did not adore it as much as Zane, so we uh maybe uh led too deep into the pre-episode talk, but I think Justin's Justin's take is gonna be the the kookiness of it. I just don't see vibing with him. So that's that's gonna be my take on Justin's for sure we'll be we'll be better at not uh showing our hand.

Speaker 2 7:07

But but with these, we each have picked the movies, so we and we picked them probably because we liked them rather than we didn't like them, so that one's a little obvious. But but maybe more specifically, I wonder if Justin didn't I I'm curious to know whether you didn't like the performances or whether you didn't like the overall like directing vibe or the feel of the movie. So I'm curious to hear what you have to say and what wrong opinions you have about this movie. But um and I I also wonder if Colin didn't like this movie as much as I did. I know you probably did like it. I'm wondering though, like what your stance is on some of the details. So we can launch right into it, I suppose, with the briefest of summaries. Uh the movie starts with Penguin getting launched into the sewers in an absolutely fantastic scene. Who's the dad? Who plays the um he's only in the movie for that first little bit. Um Paul Rubens. Paul Rubens, yeah. Yeah, Pee Wee Herman himself launches a child into the sewers.

Speaker 8:14

Um Pee Wee Herman, German, Winterprint Gurch. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 8:20

And this begins a uh a very different tone than the previous installment in the Batman Tim Burton one of two. This is two of two. The I know Colin watched the first Batman before this in prep as well, and I had seen it a few months ago. Justin, have you ever seen Batman one?

Speaker 8:45

Yes, I not recently. I watched it, I want to say, when I was either in high school or college. It was it was the last of the pre-Nolan Batmans that I'd seen any bit of. I had like I hadn't I hadn't seen even a clip of it before I watched it all the way through. Whereas this one I had seen bits and pieces as a kid. The first one I ever saw was Batman and Robin. And then same thing.

Speaker 2 9:08

I saw it. For a long time, that was yeah, yeah. I fear we will have to watch it at some point. Cause it's oh man, that's a masterpiece in and of itself, but for different reasons than this one.

Speaker 9:21

Yeah, but yeah, I haven't seen it recently enough to do a direct comparison with this. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Speaker 2 9:28

It's vastly different from this movie, I feel like, which is very interesting. And we'll talk about it more. But later afterward, we finally meet Batman and uh we meet Catwoman first, right? We actually meet Batman last. Because then we have the scene in the Of course you don't meet her as Catwoman. No, you don't meet her as Catwoman, you meet her as Selena Kyle, Michelle Pfeiffer, Selena Kyle, who is a bedraggled receptionist for Christopher Walken, who is an absolutely unhinged uh company CEO. What is I oh a department is a department store. Well, yeah, it seems like a conglomerate.

Speaker 10:06

Yeah, it is a conglomerate. But but it seems that the the like fr the flagship business is a department store, which is insane. That's an insane period piece element of this, but we'll Yes.

Speaker 2 10:21

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So uh yes, Max Shrek is Christopher Watkins' character, treats Selena Kyle like garbage. He gives a speech at a Christmas tree lighting ceremony, and she has forgotten to put his notes in his jacket pocket, and he rewards her by later throwing her out a window to her death, where she is then mysteriously reanimated by a group of Alley cats uh in a phenomenal scene where she replays her returning to her apartment and then becomes Catwoman, a pseudo-villain keen on destroying Max Shrek's life. And then we meet Batman uh because the penguin's army of goons wreaks havoc on the city, they interrupt the Christmas tree lighting ceremony in an attempt to destabilize the mayor and what sow revenge, I guess, on Gotham's elite who have disposed of him like garbage. Danny DeVito then emerges from the sewer in a plot with Max Shrek to become mayor eventually, like he runs a he he launches his mayoral campaign. It's a feel-good story in the eyes of Gothamites, but Batman is suspicious. All is revealed eventually, after much back and forth, and a date between Selena Kyle and Batman that goes poorly. The penguin reveals his true nature, he attempts to kidnap the firstborn children of Gotham and drown them in the sewer. And then when that fails, he attempts to blow up Gotham with an army of rocket-strapped penguins. In the final climactic scene, Batman confronts and kills the penguin, and Catwoman zaps Max Trek alive with a transformer that's dangerously close to a large body of water. Batman drives up, sees a stray cat, grabs it, returns to the limousine, says, Merry Christmas, Alfred, and we zoom back up to the skyline of Gotham where Catwoman is revealed to maybe not be dead. But we'll never know because they never made a third one.

Speaker 12:44

If she wasn't you you say maybe she lived. If she didn't live, who the fuck was that?

Speaker 2 12:52

I mean, you know, who knows? It could just be some it could be a successor, a catwoman successor. Oh, I suppose a copycat even.

Speaker 4 13:01

The the the studio added that in way later for like $250,000 for the specific purpose of solidifying that she's back. Wait, did they really? Yeah, that was that wasn't actually even Michelle Pfeiffer. It was a stand-in because the Michelle Pfeiffer's schedule couldn't match up. So yeah, they they spent a quarter of a million dollars just to wrap up the Catwoman storyline there.

Speaker 13:25

It feels unnecessary. I don't believe that. I don't believe that figure.

Speaker 2 13:29

A quarter of a million for one shot in 1980, what in 1990 was it just was it just a pan up? I mean, because it's like a very brief scene at the end, but in any case, while Colin is fact-checking, Justin. A brief first impression.

Speaker 13:46

My first impression, so I don't I don't know if this is this is kind of where I maybe will reveal the general thing that I disliked about it, which is that I don't like silly superhero movies. And I never did even as a kid. And the the quippy silliness of superhero movies that we largely abandoned in the 2010s only to have like, I don't know, some sort of resurgence. This this earlier era, I never would have been a superhero movie fan, I don't think, were I around when these came out. Because I am not a connoisseur of kitschy shit. And it just I I am unable to uh invest myself emotionally in a world that's tonally like this. So I'm forced to kind of I I don't even know what what what the emotion I'm having when I'm when I'm watching it, but it's it's just like images on a screen. And it's very easy for me to to just kind of take notes, for instance, during a movie like this, because I'm just I'm so out of it. That's my general impression of it. Is I I'm I'm just so I'm a bystander. Yeah.

Speaker 4 15:19

Colin. I will say I understand Justin's take as my first impression as well. Because I have a propensity for uh almost against camp. Even if camp is the medium that we're trying to go for, I kind of it I I it grinds my gears sometimes because I I also want more realism. Um so you know, some of the the dialogue and certainly like the the German expressionism like set design was like this is outside of reality, so I had to go. Exactly. Yeah, I know exactly. It really is, it's like a German expressionist fever dream. That on my initial watch, like I was there to have fun, not so much there to be immersed in my own, you know, emotional experience, I suppose. Um but then once I just decided to have fun, it was fucking fun. Like it's it's so fun, and it is like everything it does, I feel like it does for that purpose because some of that like over the top dialogue, some of the penguins just absolute ridiculousness, it's not unintentional, which I think is an important aspect. So I really I I had a really good time, but yes, I absolutely understand the feeling of not being invested at first based on you know the the Tim Burtonism, if you will.

Speaker 2 16:46

I guess this isn't it's not really fair to call it a first impression because I've seen this movie like seven or eight times, I think. But uh what's funny is this was one of the last Batman movies I ever saw of of the canon that we have, because my parents famously do not like scary things. We never we weren't allowed to watch horror movies, like nothing nothing scary or spooky. And Tim Burton especially was viewed with suspicion. And so I actually saw I saw Batman and Robin well before I ever saw this movie. And I think maybe when I first saw this movie, I didn't know how to process it. This watch around, after many viewings, I I kind of love that it's not something that I could see myself in the story itself, if that makes sense. Like I don't think that the purpose is to insert oneself because Tim Burton's creating his own everything is supposed to be outlandish for the point of like telling a moral or conveying a feeling, and I really vibe with what Tim Burton's putting down here. Like everything is so exaggerated that it draws you in and it asks you to ask broad questions that I think comic books originally were meant to do as well, or discuss human behavior and emotion. You know, Superman and Spider-Man, all of these characters are supposed to wrestle with broad societal issues and topics, and we view it through their lens and then draw conclusions based on that. So I'm excited to talk about it because I think that this movie does a great job of telling the audience, like not what to think, but these are the topics that I want to talk about as a filmmaker, and I want the audience to wrestle with them. What did work for you?

Speaker 19:01

Okay, so this this is gonna sound perhaps contradictory to what I just said. What does work is the aesthetic of Gotham City. I didn't want to make it sound that I need everything to be lifelike in the things that I enjoy. It obviously looks really cool, it looks otherworldly. I suppose I'm told it's the the aesthetic evokes German expressionism.

Speaker 4 19:26

If you want to be specific, it evokes the cabinet of Dr.

Speaker 19:29

Caligari, but ah, which I which I have never seen, unfortunately. Nick Cage will be very upset with me. But I mean it it has that that in like immediately memorable I don't look to it. There's all these faces everywhere for for some reason.

Speaker 2 19:45

It's like weird gargoyles and statues.

Speaker 19:47

Yeah, I I love the that sort of like that's the environment that it feels like Batman should inhabit, you know. I love the idea of of this figure stalking in the night. You're not sure he's there because you're getting there are faces all over the fucking place all the time. So that works, I guess. I like how physical, tangible everything is. Even though it's all very like, I don't know whether this was shot on a stage. I guess the question is how much is on a stage and how much is on like a back lot. And but but I, you know, it feels physical in a way that of course so many modern entries in this genre don't. That's something that is refreshing to go back and watch. Uh, a lot of the performances, I think, are above the material they're in. Danny DeVito, especially. I mean, he like talk about a guy who's putting his entire devotee into something in his first major film role, right? Yeah, that that is such a ballsy thing, both to take this role and to do it in such an unhinged inhuman performance. Like, like it's a type of thing that you can imagine him as an actor. Someone watching this movie, they're not gonna see they're not like what other roles can you project for for him if you're if you're a casting director or you're a director. I mean, there's not you're not gonna see him as this as this crazy monster, this this gnome of like the sewage monster. Yeah, who's a real irredeemable bad guy and who and who's is inhuman. I've said that.

Speaker 4 21:26

I would contest the irredeemable bad guy, but that's okay. We can get into that later.

Speaker 21:30

Well, we'll we'll we'll get into that, but but he's a pretty he's a pretty fucking piece of shit. I are we by the way, are we allowed to swear in here? I've yeah, oh yeah, I'm not so yeah.

Speaker 4 21:39

I mean, I'm not gonna tell my mom and dad about this anytime soon, so they won't be listening in.

Speaker 2 21:45

Yeah, no, definitely agree about the performances. Can I briefly share who else was considered for this role before Danny DeVito was cast? I think Tim Burton always wanted Danny DeVito in this role, but other

Speaker 4 22:00

Waters wrote it with Danny DeVito in mind.

Speaker 2 22:03

Yes. So like he was always the front runner, but some others that the studio wanted him to consider included Alan Rickman, John Candy, and Christopher Lloyd, all three of whom would have given very interesting performances, but none, none like DeVito.

Speaker 22:19

Well, because his size is so important to it.

Speaker 2 22:21

Yes.

Speaker 22:22

And and although although part of the bravery of his performance, let me just say, is every shot of him from behind where wearing that outfit. Wearing that weird thing. Make me as disgusting as you possibly can.

Speaker 1 23:02

Yeah.

Speaker 23:04

Make me as difficult to look at as you as as you can. Grimy, all lumped, bodybuilt like a sack of milk. It's just truly.

Speaker 4 23:25

He just fully devoted himself to it fully.

Speaker 23:28

So the skin and the teeth rotting. It's just, it's just gross.

Speaker 2 23:33

This is a good segue into what I think works in this movie. Costume design is phenomenal. I feel like everything serves a purpose. Like the weird clown gang is like so scary. Everything is like a gray because they live in the sewer. Um, Danny DeVito, like you said, yeah, that that bizarre onesie. Is it is it supposed to be the outfit he was thrown out in? Yes, that's exactly what it's a baby's outfit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think like it's either that or it's supposed to evoke that.

Speaker 24:07

Yeah, it can't literally be the same piece because he's he's grown too much.

Speaker 2 24:11

I mean, and like Batman looks good. He doesn't look garish like maybe he does in the shoemaker Batman's, like like with the weird zoom-ins on the cod pieces and butt pieces and stuff. And Michelle Pfeiffer looks killer in that pleather thing that she designs. Shout out to Bob Ringwood, costume designer. Did this win the Oscar for costume design?

Speaker 4 24:38

Fact check coming in. Also, I'll come back to that other fact check. And uh you know me, I'm not I can't go into any like specific statutory basis that I would normally be wanting to, but I have found multiple sources that confirm the 250k evaluation.

Speaker 24:55

I still don't believe it.

Speaker 4 24:56

I know, I know. That's why I led with my prelude, is because I can't, yeah, I can't find anything that I would hang my hat on for certain, but it is at least supported by multiple sources.

Speaker 25:11

Also, can I fact check on the best costume design? I'm it was not nominated.

Speaker 2 25:16

You know, whether or not you really love this movie, that feels wrong. Yeah.

Speaker 25:20

The the winner was Brahm Stoker's Dracula. Um I haven't heard of three of the other nominees. Enchanted April, Howard's End, and I've heard of Howard's End.

Speaker 2 25:34

Yeah. And then I may have to be. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 25:37

It's a Robin Williams Barry Levinson movie.

Speaker 1 25:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 25:42

Okay. So uh visual effects and makeup at the Academy Wars were nominees, but did not win. What won makeup? God. It's Dracula again. What about visual effects?

Speaker 25:55

Visual effects So Death Becomes Her. Death Becomes Her.

Speaker 2 25:59

You know what won that for Death Becomes Her? Probably that one scene in Death Becomes Her where she falls down the stairs and then she gets up and rearranges her, you know, because she breaks her neck and that's probably what did it because it but it's it's like vaguely CGI, if I remember correctly, like it's computer, which I I also echo what you think works in this movie is that everything is very tangible. There's very little touch-up here. Like it feels like uh, you know, I'm not here to constantly hate on Marvel movies, yada yada, Avengers Endgame Forever, Wakanda, blah blah blah. But everything is so polished and touched up now that, like, oh yeah, these people are perfect. Even even in the moments when they're supposed to look dingy or like they've are battle tested, everything is so meticulous in modern superhero movies, and this is just so not that, like, everything is so gross, and like when you see the penguin for the first time, you're like, Yeah, that guy lives in a sewer for sure.

Speaker 27:03

So drawing a comparison to Marvel there, when when Batman like rips his cowl off at the end, yeah, and it just like it looks like it's made of styrofoam. Yeah, it's such an unclean rip. It's like, yeah.

Speaker 3 27:20

Right.

Speaker 27:21

Yeah, and that stood out to me so much with all of the um the like the nanotech helmet graphics that just dominate everything we see now. And I don't I don't know if I liked that, even just because of how like, oh, that clearly that wouldn't have been the material that this costume was if this were in real life.

Speaker 4 27:41

Like this man has gotten shot multiple times on screen. And that's something you feel comfortable protecting your face with. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 27:50

But but at the same time, Tim Burton does it for the emotional response of of Batman revealing his identity to Selena Kyle, which I think is really fun.

Speaker 28:00

Yeah, it wouldn't it wouldn't hit the same if we had a if we had a CGI's visage just disappeared, and there is there's his head.

Speaker 2 28:08

Colin, what do you think worked?

Speaker 4 28:10

Well, uh, man, I think you both took most of mine. Um, I will agree with everything you said. I think as a way to sum up kind of what I thought worked, um, just the immersiveness and the Justin may disagree with me on this one, but I feel like it was everything that it did, comical or not, was was a conscious choice, and it it did so in in pursuit of the aesthetic that it was going for, and kind of the like I said earlier, like the campy vibe, like the dark campy vibe. So I I just think Burton's consistency and vision was really well thought out and well executed here in and pretty much everything that's talked about so far, the the set design, the com the costume design and the performances, and especially how they did some of those lines. That if they said them otherwise, you'd not think they were as iconic as they are, because this film has a ton of one-liners that are so.

Speaker 2 29:07

Maybe one of the most quotable movies ever.

Speaker 4 29:10

So I I just think it all culminates into this very, very immersive and consistent uh uh piece.

Speaker 2 29:17

Okay. I maybe want to slingshot right back to you, Colin. What are some things that you think maybe didn't work in this movie?

Speaker 4 29:26

Oh man, well, uh just to follow up exactly what I just said, there's one line that I fucking hate. I hate this one line. No matter how it was performed or how it was intended, I just didn't like this one line, and this is way too nitpicky, but it was it was Michelle Pfeiffer, Catwoman, one hour, five minutes, and approximately 15 seconds. And she said it was it was when Catwoman and Penguin were um, I think they were meeting for the first time when Catwoman came into Penguin's lair and she and it was lounging on the bed, and this was right before the the infamous bird and mouth scene. Um but she said to destroy Batman, we must turn first turn him into what he hates the most, namely us. And I just fucking hated that line. It just the doesn't mean anything. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know, even literally to follow up what I just said about how everything works and everything's consistent. I think there were some moments where for a less generous audience or someone who is less willing to buy into what Burton was selling, there's a lot of moments where like you might roll your eyes if if you're not you know immediately intoxicated with this whole um aesthetic that that um is gone for here is gone for passive voice. Ridiculous.

Speaker 2 30:46

I will say I think I agree with you that sometimes the dialogue gets weird. Because and I I like that about this movie. I think I think it really fits into the over-dramatic like aesthetic that I I think is supposed to evoke comic books as well, but it is jarring, and I think if you're not it like you said, if you're not immersed immediately, you're you could be like, what the hell was that? Because this movie can have in scenes very close together, you can have Penguin's press conference at his parents' grave where he's like, Maybe when they saw shiny flippas instead of five chubby digits, they freaked. And then in the scene immediately after, if I'm not mistaken, is when uh Batman goes to Max Shrek's office and Selena Kyle makes her reveal that she's not dead, and there's this phenomenal bit of dialogue where he where Bruce Wayne's leaving the office and they're basically setting up a date, and she goes, I'm listed. He goes, I'm tempted. She goes, I'm working, and he goes, I'm leaving, as the elevator is closing. It's such a excellent, excellent bit of banter, but it's also like you're like that's the that's in the same movie as as as the penguin's weird diatribes about I am not a human, I'm an animal. It's great, but it is it's jarring.

Speaker 32:23

I want to say, um, I think very little doesn't work, and the problem is I just don't, I'm not a fan of the camp. Because it were I a fan of the genre, you know, I'd probably love it. And it's it's mostly a vibes thing that that causes me to just be indifferent towards it. However, to me, there's a tonal inconsistency with the goofiness and the level of violence um that often kind of feels like I I I don't I don't know what what it says. I don't know why it makes me feel uncomfortable. Like, for example, there's there there's really no no-kill rule in this in this movie. I don't know if Batman generally has that or if it's just a no-gun rule. I don't I'm also not like I'm not beholden to those character tropes at all. So I I don't get upset at that. But it was like, oh man, he just he just lit that guy on fire. He just blew him up. He strapped a bomb to his chest and kicked him off the Yeah. I think as you were saying, yeah, sometimes it could it can be quite jarring. But I don't know if that doesn't work or if that's if that just isn't part of the you know.

Speaker 2 33:30

This may go a bit into thematic talk, but I know that that was part of the broad criticism of this movie upon its release was Warner Brothers did not know how to market this movie. And like I don't I don't blame them because you're like, well, it's a superhero movie which is historically targeted to children and younger audiences, and yet this is not a children's movie at all. But the first Batman was also fairly violent, not as violent as this movie, but like I guess Tim Burton might have just been ahead of the curve of like marketing to a more adult audience with superheroes, I guess. But people did bring their children to this movie and then were extremely upset.

Speaker 34:25

Because it plays out, I mean again, if you just want to go by vibe, the vibe is definitely still a kid's movie. Yes, so that's you know, it doesn't I don't know, besides the violence, and I guess the sex as well. So I'm I'm contradicting myself as I go here, but it doesn't it doesn't read as an adult film. Well it doesn't obviously it doesn't read some parts of it certainly do read. Yeah you understand the point.

Speaker 2 34:54

Yeah, that is something like I think like again, I'm not really a Tim Burton fanatic either. Movies like Coraline are upsetting, but they're clearly for children. And maybe this uh but this this is m way more than Coraline. Maybe he had streamlined his vision at that point. Coraline came out like 2005 stuff. True. Coraline's more of a fairy tale. This is too, but it's a weird juxtaposition for sure.

Speaker 35:29

Can I tell you one other thing that I think didn't work? Yes. Um, and Khan, you mentioned this earlier when I called a penguin irredeemable. His absolutely nothing, this is notwithstanding of Danny DeVito's performance, which is spectacular, as we've noted. The character, it's the characterization. I'm a little uncomfortable with it because it's because he's so evil to me, and and it it feels a little bit ableist is not the word I'm looking for here. But but it like well, yes. Let me think on this in some way.

Speaker 2 36:09

Yeah, let me yeah. No, I think I I think I understand what you're trying to say. I think there are three character arcs happening in this movie. Maybe four. I mean, if you're uh like I I while Christopher Walker gets a lot of screen time, I do think he's very clearly a side character. The three main arcs here are the penguin, batman, and catwoman. And all three of them use an animal as like their like persona. And there are three distinct moralities with each of them, because the bat the Batman is you know our noble hero who always does good and is striving through tough situations with a brave face and does not let his inordinate wealth uh consume him.

Speaker 36:59

And as a result, I would say doesn't really have much of an arc, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 37:03

Sure. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yes. And that's I think why he's not the main focus of this movie because Tim Burton's way more interested in the in-between spaces, which is why Catwoman is kind of this person who has adversity thrust upon her, and then by a weird twist of fate, becomes this superhuman, whip-wielding badass. And she she wanders throughout the film. Sometimes she teams up with the bad guys, and sometimes she is motivated by an inherently good thing, like she wants to stop Max Shrek from zapping Gotham of all of its power, etc. And then I think you have to have a foil there of somebody who is, regardless of their physical stature or their lot in life, maybe because of their lot in life, they have just given in to that like completely evil impulse. I do I I think I agree with you that Penguin is an evil character and not redeemable because he's always like and monstrous, yes. And I think that he does so because we have to show that that is an option and that's uh the path some people take.

Speaker 4 38:27

So when I said irredeemable, I mean I guess I meant not able to be empathized with, um, which isn't necessarily what irredeemable means, especially when we're talking about the scope of a single story. How I view Penguin is the uh the flip side of Bruce Wayne. They both start in these mansions, they they start with families um who could support them for their entire lives. Penguin, because of, you know, I think we'll talk about this later, because of some deficiency, if you will, is thrown out and he's put in he's put into this situation where he has to basically fend for himself and or the penguins have to fend for him. Not quite sure how that development went in. That that's part of the that's part of the uh between the lines uh craziness of this film is how the hell did that happen. But either way, yeah, I mean he he he just wants to be loved. This this guy just wants the the people have got them to see him for who he is, which is a disgusting sewer monster, but also that's not his fucking fault.

Speaker 2 39:34

I mean he's he's he's that all he wants, is that all he wants? But at the I mean, yes, but at the same time he's so deficient and like he was raised by penguins and also a group of evil carnies, quite correct.

Speaker 4 39:49

Yeah, I don't I'm not quite sure where that played in.

Speaker 2 39:52

That he the leader or is he like I think it's just shown it's just showing that he's incapable of relating to others in a healthy way.

Speaker 4 40:02

Right. And yeah, I I do posit that that is all he wanted in the middle, in the middle of the film. Um when he when the mayor was on the table. I mean, obviously, besides the crazed sex desire and all that, that was what he wanted too, but in a sense, that's just approval too. Like, come on, yeah. Um, but then when that was clearly ripped from him, then he was like, Well, I I'm gonna get back at all the people who were in the same position as I was and did not have everything taken away from them, the first sons of Gotham, you know, and of which Bruce Wayne is the for example. So that that's what I meant by redeemable, I suppose. Like, I can imagine someone who is placed in this position in life, having to raise themselves, and is literally a sewer rat, a sewer penguin, it could lead into some quote unquote evil um behavior.

Speaker 40:56

So I guess I my my only my only question there, because all of that obviously makes sense. I j do you find that when he's defeated at the end, it it it's a cheer moment. And I think in the version of the character that we're describing that we're projecting onto this, of what what he should be, it shouldn't it should be a real tragic defeat because it should be this figure who has been whose entire li his life was stacked against him from the beginning, and he had no real chance ever.

Speaker 2 41:26

Well, it's it's you say that. I didn't I don't read that as a cheer moment. I think I agree. I think I I think there's a lot of like empathy toward like, oh what a waste, you know, of a life, or or like how sad that he felt so dejected that he decided to make he I think the the turning point for his character is when he returns to the zoo, his mayoral prospects have dwindled, so he's he does that weird diatribe where he's like I'm an animal and I wanna just blow it all up. But I I I think it is sad, like because they have that weird like the penguins march him into the water like in a in a funeral dirge at the end, like it's it is sad, and just the very way he collapses.

Speaker 4 42:15

Obviously, this is not a spoiler-free podcast because um everybody's in theory has watched it, so we're just diving right into the end here. Yeah, but yeah, the way the very way he collapses. Um, you I mean, you think you had a victory moment before when he fell into the water, um, but then he comes up and you think maybe he's coming back into the fight, but no, he has his the the black ooze coming out of his mouth, and he's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna get you just in a second, and then he just collapses very anticlimactically. It is, it's almost like a loss. So I I would say that it is it's not a cheer moment, it's like it's it's looking at this character who didn't have anything uh wanted and then lost it all.

Speaker 43:01

Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if this is a problem that's stemming for me from like the not being able to emotionally invest in the movie as a whole, that I that I can't see it as as as tragically as maybe I'm supposed to. I'm I wonder if that's why. No, because because I I hear what you guys are saying, and uh certainly the way you're describing it, it sounds touching.

Speaker 4 43:25

Well, I mean I mean I think that's also a risk of what I mean Burton's done here. It's yes, it's alienating, to be honest. Like it is, it's entertaining as hell, um, and it's fun. Also, it's dark, but it's fun. Um, you can laugh at it, you can quote it, but also it's alienating. You can also go into this if you're really trying to, you know, highlight some of these messages, but you're framing it around these characters who uh say absolutely crazy things about um wanting to grow people, um, as as the penguin does. You It's it's easy to lose people there.

Speaker 2 44:03

Yeah, no, I I totally agree with you. I think that is the risk you take as a Tim Burton style director. If well, and any director, really, if you if if people just for whatever reason are not connecting with your style, I think another director, Yorgos Lanthimos, also falls into this category very clearly. If you are not immediately vibing with a Lanthamos movie, you're gonna be detached the whole time. And it's not gonna make any sense to you. And you're just gonna be like, I don't know, I don't know. I'm I'm over this. Yeah, I agree. Scenes in particular we really liked.

Speaker 4 45:01

I'll start. Oh yeah. The one of my favorite shots was Catwoman or um Selena Kyle in this moment falling from the window. How the the camera like jumped with each of the canopies. Yeah. I uh that was fantastic. You could feel it, you could feel the fall. That was so immersive. I I adored that shot.

Speaker 2 45:27

That's an underrated because I thought you were gonna say what my answer is gonna be, which is like as after she's been raised from the dead by weird cat magic, and she she replays the whole scene in her apartment earlier in the movie. She gets home from a long day at work and she goes through the motions like very routine of you know, she checks her voicemail and she feeds her cat milk, which don't do that. Your cats don't like milk, but um, and then she, you know, wanders into her immaculate but cluttered, like sad apartment filled with pink and stuffed animals, and her boyfriend has cancelled their Christmas getaway. The mirror image of that scene is like one of my favorites ever. She returns, but everything is different because she is fundamentally changed, and she actually is like, you know what? Fuck this. Like, actually, I don't I like none of this matters anymore. And she plays the voicemail again, and it's an advertisement for Shrek department stores, and she smashes her cute little neon sign to say hell here, which is so awesome, and then she gets to work and she makes her badass Catwoman suit. That's so awesome. It's such a great scene.

Speaker 4 46:43

I'm trying to think of a scene with Catwoman that doesn't work. I'm sorry. True.

Speaker 2 46:47

I don't know about you, Miss Kitty, but I feel so much yummier.

Speaker 46:53

For my favorite shot, it's not one that there's like a good thematic or technical reason why, but for some reason, two weeks after watching this, uh, it's the one that I remember the most. It was the penguin like at his desk in the in the mayoral uh campaign office, and Batman just rolling by in full view. Being like, I wonder what he's up to in there.

Speaker 2 47:26

Oh no, it's actually him looking for his family in the genealogy records at the library. That's what they say it is, but he's getting the he already knows, but yeah, but the reveal is that he already knows.

Speaker 4 47:37

I wrote a I wrote a note for that. I said, Batmobile trying to be incognito is comical.

unknown 47:43

Yeah.

Speaker 47:44

I laughed out loud in that scene.

Speaker 4 47:46

Yeah. And yeah, that's that's one of those moments that I was referencing before. Like, if you're not in it, you're like, that is just unironically.

Speaker 2 47:54

It's ridiculous. Yeah. However, yeah, I mean, yeah, it is. No, no, no, no. Defend it. Yeah, you know what I will. I will. Because like Gotham City in this movie is so outlandishly art deco and bizarre that if you saw the Batmobile strolling down the street, would you really, would you really be like, that's not supposed to be here? Because this this city is obviously made for Batman. Also, would you live in Gotham City? I think I might. It's an edgy place to live in your 20s.

Speaker 48:32

It's well, I think, I think because in this world, like this he doesn't share this DC universe with with the more superpowered friends, I'd imagine. Um, and in a Batman only world, like, yeah, we're only seeing little snippets of crime that that in this very large, you know, call it eight million population metropolis, you're not in grave danger every every moment of every day. Uh yeah. Certainly there are people shooting up town squares often. Uh gangs of evil clowns, maybe. That's just multiple gangs of evil clowns, not just with with different leaders and affiliations.

Speaker 4 49:20

Um there's a whole clown hierarchy.

Speaker 49:25

Although I should let me let me ask. I don't know, maybe this maybe there is maybe they do share this DC universe with the more superpowered figures, because Catwoman here, as you said, Zane, she's magical. Uh this is not a even in the kitschy sense, this is not a totally grounded universe. She's a supernatural being. She has superpowers, I suppose, which which Catwoman ordinarily doesn't. But here she has nine lives. Nine lives. Um, so yeah, maybe like I I would uh I could choose to live in a world where there's that level of mystery and and the paranormal around me.

Speaker 2 50:06

That's fair.

Speaker 4 50:07

Colin, would you and Sam move to Gotham? So Sam despises clowns. So if if there's a large volume of them, specifically within some sort of gang universe, yeah. I I don't think we would. Um also I like um sunlight too much, I think. But other than that, maybe you know, we could we would have a vacation home for sure.

Speaker 50:34

Yeah, okay. That's an interesting can I can I ask a question? What's the brightest moment in this movie? Is that are they ever is daylight ever a thing? I'm trying to go through my Rolodex right now.

Speaker 2 50:46

I think some of the like the penguins mayoral speech br like when he has his breakdown it occurs in the daytime. But it's all like gray, yeah, right? Yes, because it's snowing. So like even then, I think the warmest moments in this movie are at Wayne Manor by the fireplace and probably like the masquerade, yeah. The masquerade, and then when the Christmas tree is lit up, but before the clowns attack.

Speaker 4 51:18

Which let me just say this, and I think this is probably just to emphasize the I don't want to say the dumbness of that character of the ice princess, but I will. But having a tree lighting with no countdown is just diabolical. I will stand by that. That was that was a crime. That was maybe the worst crime in this entire movie.

Speaker 2 51:45

Fair.

Speaker 4 51:46

Okay. A little too dramatic. I will go back to the case.

Speaker 2 51:50

I think it's also a crime that like the first tree lighting ceremony got interrupted by evil clowns, and so they decide to do another one, knowing that you you know you're just inviting instances like this when the first one's gotten turned into mayhem.

Speaker 4 52:07

Yeah. Honestly, any public gathering in that square specifically, which is so clearly vulnerable to invasion. Why with no security whatsoever, other than Batman uh uh occasionally flying through.

Speaker 52:22

Yeah, like I said, I wonder if gun control is ever proposed in this universe. Exactly.

Speaker 2 52:26

It never seems to occur to them.

Speaker 4 52:29

Um there is uh another scene that I thought really worked well, and this goes to our conversation on the penguin, specifically when he was doing the whole um facade of pretending to find out who his parents were at the graveyard scene when he went and finished visited their graves. The score in that scene was what got me because it it starts and it's it's so conniving, it's almost mischievous, and then it transforms into something a little bit dark again. But then at the very end of that scene, the penguin walks away from the graves and he stops and he turns around to look at them again, and during that moment it turns like soft and reflective. And I maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think that was a conscious choice saying that through all of this, through all of this clear deception, um, that he knew who his parents were. He he's just showing he's trying to show the world um this this fake narrative, but through all that, he still longs to be wanted by them and by everyone else, and we get that kind of gentleness toward the end of that scene. That I really I really loved that.

Speaker 2 53:40

That's a great scene, especially when he the flowers, the roses that he lays on the grave are like wilted and brown. It's so it's so good, it's so excellent. Not even then can Tim Burton spare a red rose. It's gotta be something weird.

Speaker 53:58

I think that's an excellent point, Colin. And I and I I appreciate your your your efforts in humanizing him to me after the fact.

Speaker 4 54:06

Which may be a lot towards it. Thank you. Yeah, I I you set up the you set it up at the beginning, and I knew what my goal needed to be by the end. You uh sing some humanity in Penguin. Yeah.

Speaker 2 54:18

Shout out to Danny Elfman, for those who don't know, longtime Tim Burton collaborator. Excellent score here. It I think it adds an element of gravity to the movie that it wouldn't have had otherwise. Let's briefly do a what I'm calling a frame shifter moment. We on this podcast acknowledge that we are three white dudes, and we want to strive in a what limited way we can to view the movies that we watch through different lenses, put our take ourselves out of our own shoes, put ourselves in other shoes. I want to talk about Catwoman here and ha what a feminist icon she is in this movie. I obviously don't have this lived experience, but it seems pretty clear that like Catwoman is the embodiment of like empowerment. Like the like it's so and it's so obvious. Like before she's this very like meek and subservient woman who is living in a man's world and she's trying to do what she can to survive in a gritty Gotham city, and then after her reward for that is death, she is reborn, and she threw everything like her costume choice, her dialogue, she's living for herself and not for the men around her. It's awesome. It's she's just so good. Michelle Pfeiffer's so good in this. But I would love to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Speaker 56:07

One question I had on that is I wonder, do you find her outfit and some of her mannerisms male-gazed? And does that work against obviously like none of that means that she this is not a deeply feminist character. And then that like the message of empowerment still comes through. Um, do you think that works against it? Or is it coming into her own and embracing her own sexuality? I guess.

Speaker 2 56:37

That's a good point. Because while like I do maybe think that some of the like the cat suit elements and like her new her newfound sexuality in the second portion of the film can be like male gaze oriented. I don't know if Tim Burton's ever had a conversation with a woman before, or or really, or or like I think I think women deeply confuse him. Like, aside from children, I don't know if he's necessarily capable of thinking in that way. Like, I don't I don't know, he doesn't really objectify women, yeah. He more is he views them as alien creatures he's incapable of talking to. So like yes and no, I think, would be my opinion on that. I also but but on the other side, on the other hand, too, even though those things are sexual or sensual, like the cat suit is obviously very evocative, it's also more an embodiment of a like a confidence that she has. Because she like beforehand, uh uh another shout out to costume design here, like she wears those like huge glasses to hide her face, and her receptionist outfit is very like frumpy or like tweed, like thick fabrics and like covering up items, and then after she like clear, like she uses the costume to her own advantage, like because she's taking agency over herself.

Speaker 4 58:17

I think that's also enforced by the way the costume is introduced because in a lot of films like this we don't get kind of the story behind the costume, but here we did in uh not just in any explanation, but in an absolutely iconic explanation in that scene that Zane was referencing earlier with the hell here. Yeah, I I th I think uh to me it evokes an agency more than more than uh a male gazy type perspective. But again, that's from my male perspective.

Speaker 58:50

So well, another thing almost uh sort of the same note before she goes through this transformation, before she's uh killed and turns into catwoman. When she first comes home to the apartment, so what what the way I think it would have been written if it were made today is that the th the thing she says about like not having a man, not having a family, the way it's presented here was that it wasn't just like societal expectations, it was also like her being like, Oh, I just don't have any of this. The slight differentiation that I think if it were made today was it would it would be you'd see more of her resentment at people trying to impose that on her rather than her being like, Oh, I'm just a I'm just a girl on her own.

Speaker 2 59:39

No, yeah, yeah, no, I see what you're saying.

Speaker 59:43

Yeah, and I I I I actually I wasn't sure how to reconcile that because during that first scene I was like, oh, this is not what I expected. I I'm not sure if I'd I'd ever seen that part of the movie when I watched it earlier, and I certainly wasn't I didn't have any any thoughts on it if I'd seen it as a kid. Yeah, and it and it seemed more old-fashioned than I expected it to be. And not again, not just like it was what people expected of her, but it was what she appeared to be saying about herself internalized. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:12

Yeah, I think no, I think that's a really valid point. I wonder if that's like there's like an element of 90s cultural expectations there too. Like I think it's just a it's a it's a product of the time as well. Like the point is made more subtly than it would be made today. I do I think there is still an element of when she transforms into Catwoman. I think part of her transformation is recognizing that like not only is that not stuff that I wanted, but it's stuff that I should never have wasted time on in the first place. Like these weird expectations that are thrust upon me of like my overbearing parents who are like, oh, you know, we just want to have you here at home, and why do you live in that scary city? It's like I think there is like a commentary there, but it's it it would be it would be more explicitly made today. So I yeah, I I I definitely understand what you're saying. Okay, so we've talked a lot about what we liked and didn't like, but I do also want to mention the cultural context in which this movie was made. Tim Burton's original Batman was very well received, and this one not so much by audiences. I mean, it made a ton of money, but not as much as Warner Brothers expected, but it was also 284 million sick.

Speaker 4 1:01:47

And I'm gonna fact check that one too. So okay, good.

Speaker 2 1:01:49

Yeah, cool. Yeah, we're yeah, we'll pan back to Collins fact-check corner. The critical reception was also mixed, which is kind of surprising considering I think this movie has now aged very well in the eyes of the general like film watching community. I think this is one of the more beloved Batman movies, uh, certainly for its value in terms of uh its incredible acting performances that it contains. But at the time, I think we've talked about this. People were frightened of this movie, children were frightened, and it was part of the reason why Tim Burton was not asked to make a third Batman movie and was replaced by Warner Brothers. And the next movie we get is Batman Forever, with Jim Carrey as the Riddler. If you've never seen it, I don't think it's that good, but it's at least has a little bit more value than the fourth of the 90s Batman movies, which is Batman and Robin, which is a hilarious, at least watchable movie because it is just so bad. It's shocking, honestly, how bad it is. That's kind of the broader time period that we find ourselves in, but it has aged well, I would say. I think it's a stunning movie. It holds up stunning absolute stona and it holds up over time.

Speaker 4 1:03:19

I think I think what makes it kind of what it is is because the first Batman was so successful that they told you in order to get Jim Burton back, they basically told him that this was allowed to be a Burton movie movie, uh Burton film, which is why it is the way it is, and also why the way why it is the way it was received, which led to Burton not being asked back, which is just a whole fun little twist and turn narrative.

Speaker 2 1:03:48

But you know what? Even though Tim Burton was not asked back to complete his trilogy, I think this is the pinnacle of the kind of Batman movie that he wanted to make. I'm not sure if he had followed up with another one, we would have gotten anything like it. I'm not sure where to go even after this movie. Now is as good a time as ever to mention that also in prep for this movie, since I'd seen it a couple of times, I also watched for the first time a behind the scenes uh TV special that they premiered called The Bat, the Cat and the Penguin, where they interviewed Michael Keaton, Danny DeVito, and Michelle Pfeiffer, and it is phenomenal. Danny DeVito, quote, This is the biggest movie I've ever done. I've never played anything like this before. This is from the bowels of I don't know where. I've never explored this in my life. We can tell, Danny. We can tell. I bring this up to say Tim Burton explicitly says this is not a sequel to Batman. This is a vignette within the broader world that he's created. And they told Batman's story in the first movie and arrived at a conclusion, so they felt comfortable exploring other characters that exist in this world.

Speaker 4 1:05:06

So just to follow up on the fact check, it was 266 million. So it's just a shy 18 mil off on my practicing off memory.

Speaker 2 1:05:18

And do you have a do you have the budget in front of you for how much this movie costs?

unknown 1:05:22

Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:05:22

Okay, so that one's gonna be another memory one. But yeah, uh 80 million issues. That sounds right.

Speaker 2 1:05:27

I see. It's probably closer to 80, I would think.

Speaker 4 1:05:31

And the the 266 was worldwide. Uh domestic it was 162 or so.

Speaker 2 1:05:38

So adding on to the general head math, for those who aren't as familiar, even though a movie costs X amount, you tend to double that amount when figuring the total cost of the movie in terms of advertising. That's not uh that's not a bull a fixed rule, but it's a general one for those who Want to figure out how much a movie actually made. So if this movie cost around $80 million and then made $260 million, you could figure it made about $100 million, give or take.

Speaker 4 1:06:12

And just because Justin is really so hard, like so much wanting to say something, I'm gonna hop in the hair.

Speaker 1:06:18

I just I want to ask, I want to ask because because as a follower of like the the the film box office, you know, I sometimes I'll peruse the subreddit, our box office. I will, I'll do this. That like two times budget rule, where did that stem from? Because I I don't know. That that to me, I I understand that I mean, as you just you kind of gave the caveat that it's it's very it's not hard and fast. But to me, it's almost I think of that as almost useless because there's so many things that I don't see advertised anywhere, or their or their advertisement isn't is entirely in terms of like they've got like two posters at a bus stop in the entire city of LA. And others where it's like it's playing three times per commercial break during the NBA finals. So I do you do you guys have any idea where that rule, quote unquote, stemmed from? Or is it just something that people have started repeating so much that it's just like, oh, this is how we estimate it? I I I just I have I've always thought that I was like, we're all just we're just regurgitating this as if it's common knowledge. And I'm like, where did it who's the first person that said this? That that that was how we calculate the advertising budget.

Speaker 2 1:07:34

It's a it's a great point.

Speaker 4 1:07:36

I think the bottom line here is just that the the quote unquote budget is increased significantly by marketing and production or pro uh marketing and like advertising promotion. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:07:50

I don't know where the rule comes from. I've heard enough like industry insiders and people on podcasts who know more about the inner workings of film production than I do say that. So that's that's like the but that's the rule of thumb. But you're right. No, you're right. I and I feel like maybe that's conventional knowledge that's more applicable to a movie like Batman Returns that came out in the 90s when the industry was more standardized, and advertising and promotion looks so different now. Like now you can get away with promoting a movie to death on TikTok for $200 in a song and have some success. But yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1:08:31

Colin, could you share? You said I think the other day when we were doing our our our sort of pre-show that he was actually eating uh that was a real fish. Um if either of you could could tell the story.

Speaker 4 1:08:45

That was in that documentary, right? Wasn't it saying? Wasn't in that it wasn't in the one I watched, but it was just tied to yeah, it was just tied to him you know going full method, like he was eating raw fish behind the scenes. Again, that's anecdotal. I can't point to any specific source that you know verifies whatever, you know.

Speaker 2 1:09:06

I mean, but it looks real, it looks like a real fish. So like either in the film, yeah.

Speaker 4 1:09:11

Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 1:09:12

I mean, well, and like either the prop design people deserve super kudos for making some weird mole jello of jello or something that looks like a fish, or that's a real fish he's just munching on. Right.

Speaker 4 1:09:25

I imagine it's smoked or something, surely. Smoked fish looks like raw fish. Yeah, but that's true. It would be iconic to to imagine.

Speaker 2 1:09:33

Kenny Davito famously eats things like during like if if if it if on a movie or in a show he's asked to eat something, he will actually eat it. A few years ago did a play on Broadway where part of his uh monologue scene near the end of the play, he eats a boiled egg, and apparently he would just eat he actually would eat a series of boiled eggs on stage like every day. Broadway, you know, you have like eight shows a week or something, so that's like at least eight boiled eggs a week.

Speaker 1:10:12

Can I can I share a small a small anecdote uh related to actors eating?

Speaker 2 1:10:16

Yes.

Speaker 1:10:17

Just for those for those at home, uh my day job, whilst not being a highly successful actor, is that I'm a stand-in for more successful actors on film and TV sets, um, which is sort of like a body double. We can get into it at a different time. But I did witness an actor once on a show that I was working on eat chocolate scones during a scene in which he really shouldn't have been eating them because we did take after take after take after take. And I think he probably had about 15 of them. Okay of like the full thing that he was actually he threw up, he got sick. Um we had to we had to take a little pause. And and it was it was on like take one two or three, it was a it was alerted to him, like, hey, just so you know, we have to do a lot of different angles of this. Neither of the takes we've gotten so far are ones we're gonna use, like maybe hold off. And he was like, uh no, no, no.

Speaker 2 1:11:18

No, no, no, sir.

Speaker 1:11:19

That's that's not what an actor does, love. He was a British man. Uh and yeah, and and everyone was kind of like, man, he's still going, huh?

Speaker 2 1:11:31

It was Andrew Garfield, wasn't it?

Speaker 1:11:34

It was it was not Andrew Garfield.

Speaker 2 1:11:36

Oh, that's awesome, though. You hear the occasional story of an actor like my biggest regret was eating X amount of food when I shouldn't have. Yeah. But what are you gonna do?

Speaker 1:11:46

Fake how do you fake eat something? Well, you don't always have you don't have to eat it when the camera's not on you. That's certainly one thing.

Speaker 2 1:11:53

It's true.

Speaker 1:11:54

It's true. It's like, hey, it's the other character's coverage, you know, you can just kind of smack your lips. You don't have to go through the whole thing.

Speaker 4 1:12:01

Stories like that make me think of um the oh yeah, yeah. Le Grande Beauf. It's uh I think it's a French film about uh a group of rich people just literally eating themselves to death, and that's their goal. They go into this home, they just order all this food and these chefs to prepare this food, and they their goal is to eat themselves to death. And you know, the the the people on that film were eating the whole time, and on a film in which their characters were eating themselves to death, uh just blows my blows my mind.

Speaker 1:12:33

What in the marquee de side? What brought you to this film, Colin? We're getting off track, but that that's that's insane.

Speaker 4 1:12:42

Uh grande bouffe. Letterbox season challenge. Just a little plug there. The poster is awesome. Yes. I'm notoriously bad at those challenges. I uh I do super well for a few weeks and then I drop off.

Speaker 2 1:13:01

I did I did just pop the uh the Italian poster for this m for this movie into our group chat, uh where a busty woman is laid out on a buffet table with a cake atop her bosoms. It is excellent. Just a stellar, stellar, stellar poster. Wow. Wow.

Speaker 1 1:13:25

Okay.

Speaker 2 1:13:27

Any other thoughts on the movie in general or actor performances in particular before we kind of wrap up here? I love Danny DeVito in this movie. So many amazing quotes from him. It does define his career. We kind of touched on this earlier. I hesitate to say he's been typecast since then in a role like this, because he does he has so many different things, like so many different things going on throughout his career. He doesn't stick to Gross Sewer Man, but he does I think he gets a particular enjoyment out of playing gross sewer man adjacent people, like his character in Always Sunny.

Speaker 1:14:09

And I do want to say I think this is the best penguin depiction.

Speaker 4 1:14:14

Uh which is so funny because it's so off of what you know the comics do. So I it's not something I would uh guess is so good because it is so left field.

Speaker 1:14:28

Did you guys watch the Colin Farrell show uh on HBO Max?

Speaker 2 1:14:33

I've seen maybe half an episode, but not enough to yeah.

Speaker 1:14:37

I enjoyed it quite a bit. Uh and and he's you know, Colin Farrell is an amazing actor, and he obviously disappears both in the costume and in his persona into that role. But having seen them both recently now, like this is more iconic. It's it stands out more. I think it's it's challenging in the sense that it's a lived-in caricature. It's it's tough to to be so over the top and not just seem like you're being over the top. I give him all the credit for that. The one another another performance that I just I told you guys about this before. This will be new to the listeners. The one goon in uh oh did I timestamp it early on in the movie when he has grabbed Selena Kyle and he tells her to shut up. Yeah, it's so aggressive. He's so he is in the wrong movie. He like like the evil and it in his tone, it's it's it's it stands out. It's powerful. He's like, This is my moment. I'm I'm a bad guy here. And it was one of my favorite, it was just one of my favorite little one-off bits. I love it when an actor gives their all in their under five day rate, you know.

Speaker 2 1:15:56

It's so good. He's he's in a Tarantino movie, and everybody else is doing their own thing. It's fantastic.

Speaker 4 1:16:07

Yep. There are just so many things in this film. I know that so I'm having to pick and choose. First thing, um, so when I was watching Hour and a Half In, I uh I loved the idea that Gotham crowds um always bring tomatoes at all to speeches, just in taste. And when that happened, I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. That's incredible. And then when Penguin had that line uh about uh specifically commenting on that, that absolutely killed me. Just incredible, absolute peak. Um, another Penguin thing. You can tell who my favorite character in this was, even though that's a hard thing to say. I love Catwoman too. Alfred. Alfred was good. He's he's got one of my favorite lines, resoundingly negative RSVP. Yeah, anyway. So though there's one shot of Penguin's little um flipper at the end as he, I think it's as he emerges from the lake. It's like it's a shot specifically of his his hand, and uh when that came up, it reminded me of the 2005 Pride and Prejudice shot of Mr. Darcy's hand for some reason. Totally different vibes, but it uh it's that's just what it spoke to me as. So I had to throw that in. The the last thing I have to mention, it speaks volumes and also ties back into the Penguin and Bruce Wayne are kind of opposite ends of the same coin. Is that as you mentioned earlier, Justin, there is really we're not shying away from Batman straight up murdering people in this film. Um we have that bomb scene, we have the fire scene, but notably the whole system that Selena is trying to fight against this whole film, um, specifically in you know, taking out Max. Bruce Wayne, you know, this this rich man who benefits from this the system uh is opposed dramatically to to any sort of violence against Max. And he's like, We just we just take him to jail. That that's all we can do here. In a in a film where uh he has no aversion to violence or killing, uh, the this this person who is kind of similar to him, who benefits from his wealth and through his enterprises, he he opposes Selena in that regard of no, we we can't take him out. We have to do what's right within you know the the justice system that we have uh imposed.

Speaker 1:18:40

Opposing political violence. Hey, always a good Apropos to the to the uh the current moment.

Speaker 2 1:18:50

It's very uh very timely from Mr.

Speaker 1:18:53

Burton. On the on the on the subject of timeliness, I just I wanna what we were the the week when we watched this movie for those at home happened to be the week of the Charlie Kirk uh assassination. And and it was very jarring watching the show watching the shooting into the crowd scenes. Uh and it's a like the Charlie Kirk killing is obviously not not um unique in that respect. Like I I think I've had a similar anytime there is some sort of mass event or or headlining story involving a shooting, it makes me see a scene like these differently in the immediate aftermath. And the firing into the crowd and just having everyone go like, oh, oh no. I don't even know if I have a point to make here beyond just that it was shocking. It was shocking, and it was shocking how silly it's played.

Speaker 2 1:19:54

Yeah, no, I I get what you're saying in terms of like how sometimes movies very eerily mirror reality, and sometimes they're so far removed that you're just like, what are we doing? Like, like, like like when we have unfortunately real life experiences to draw from, it changes our perception of the films we watch. No, it's a good point. I am I'm trying to think if I have anything else to add. There's just so many great quotes in this movie. Danny a lot of them coming from Danny DeVito. Hell, the sexes are equal with their erogenous zones blown skies. So great. Do we wanna officially segue into our society spotlights where each of us reads a couple of letterbox reviews we liked?

Speaker 1 1:20:58

Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:20:59

Okay. So mine is from User Silent Dawn. Um it was June 20th, 2019, someone oldie here. They said, not a Batman movie, not a story about Bruce Wayne, simply a tale of observing the ramifications of greed, normative oppression, and the fetish in reclaiming one's power. Traits that the caped crusader knows all too well. Tim Burton created a fantasy kink opera out of a comic book property, and families went to see it in droves. Respect. And I I just love that. It's it's tying Bruce Wayne specifically, you know, into those characters that are kind of portrayed as the villains here, and they all kind of work within the same system. Batman is just working a little bit differently. But that that last line of just families went to see it in droves, love it. Fantasy kink opera all day long.

Speaker 2 1:21:54

That's excellent. Uh my my letterbox review is from one Josh Lewis who co-hosts the podcast Slezoids, which I've heard a couple episodes of, but I'm not super familiar with. This one says, This is the only Christmas movie for me, which god, yeah. I mean, yeah. An operatic tragedy steeped in gothic expressionism and a genuinely affecting meditation on identity and loneliness, yet also the kind of batshit insanity that features an army of penguins with rockets strapped to their backs, maybe less of a great Batman film than a three psychopaths trample through a city in search of themselves through sex violence and industry film. Which, yeah, definitely, definitely agree with that one there. I mentioned earlier that this movie came out in July, which is wild to me because that it is such a Christmas movie, like explicitly so. But I think there is a tradition of summer blockbusters not necessarily like I think Die Hard also came out in the summer, which is interesting because it's also a Christmas movie.

Speaker 4 1:22:57

Fact check coming in hot July 22nd, 1988.

Speaker 2 1:23:01

Yeah, there you go. So, you know, the the studio's desire for a summer blockbuster supersedes the appropriateness of the release date.

Speaker 1:23:11

Yeah, my review, which came from user Nick from June 14th, 2020. And just for some context here, I'm always gonna try to find reviews that gave it the same score that I did. So this was an also a two and a half out of five review. First thing he says is, so is this a Christmas movie? lol. And uh he said, My biggest complaint about this movie, and a little bit for the previous one too, is how little screen time and character development Bruce Wayne got. Didn't feel like Michael Keaton was really given a chance to shine in that part, and that might have made the movie less boring too if he'd been given that chance. And I just want to point out to that to that review, I hope that that doesn't come across as too um Philistine, and that like just because the movie had something else to say other than Batman, other than like telling a Batman story, I think it's perfectly acceptable to be a little annoyed that your Batman movie didn't focus more on Batman. So uh, you know, I feel for you here, Nick. And and there's going to be a way, I think, in a in a a perfect rendition of this movie where both of these things can be accomplished, and perhaps we're able to see a little bit more of that Bruce being the other side of uh Oswald's coin, and that we see some more, I don't know, reckoning with the privilege that he's been given. That arc did not exist in this movie. I think even if he did not make that point, I'm gonna make that point for you, Nick.

Speaker 4 1:24:36

Um, I think that's a very good point, Nick, that you just made it through just his mouth.

Speaker 1:24:44

He also says the whole sex craze and horniness of Penguin and Batman and and Batman's crush on Catwoman, they came across as creepy and weird the entire time. Cringy and downright uncomfortable at times. Do you guys agree with that? Do you think it came across as cringy and weird as as my boy Nick did?

Speaker 2 1:25:03

I wouldn't say cringy. It is weird. Like it's undeniably weird.

Speaker 4 1:25:08

And also, like uh maybe uncomfortable in the sense that if I were like the third person in a room with those other two, then yeah, I'd be uncomfortable. But you know, in the sense that uh, you know, that I'm watching them have this interaction, I don't find it uncomfortable per se. But I I see what line of thought we're going with here. I'll also follow up. Uh Michael Keaton was the specific reason that we had so little Batman lines. Part of his review of the script was basically just cutting a lot of his monologues because he was like, This isn't something Batman would say, he would leave it all unspoken. Whether or not that uh justifies per se the lack of arc, as Justin said earlier, for Batman is not it, I don't think it necessarily justifies it, but it's a point worth making.

Speaker 2 1:26:00

I mean, this movie already runs at a cozy two hours and six minutes, and I feel like if there's like a a whole section of Batman that we get. This movie quickly turns into a nearly three-hour experience, which that would be overwhelming even for me, maybe. So maybe maybe not. I can dwell in this movie for a long time. Okay, thank you for that. Thank you, letterbox. So with that, let's move on to the final verdict. Colin, does this movie hold up and w will we keep it in the society canon?

Speaker 4 1:26:43

Okay, so I I do think it holds up, and I would like to keep it in the canon. I think it knows what it is and it presents what it is intending to present. So I would watch it again because I've watched it multiple times already, and I would suggest it to someone else. And is it is it a movie that you tell them what they're getting into beforehand, or do you let them go in blind? That's another question. Um, but I certainly would tell someone else to watch this movie.

Speaker 1:27:15

Yeah. Uh for me, I would say it's tough because I don't think I would suggest this without knowing someone's specific taste. And if I knew that their taste was a good match for it, I would already expect them to have seen it. And as far as watching it again, no I on my own, I probably will not. Again, it did it because just because it doesn't fit my personal, it doesn't scratch my itch for what I want out of a a superhero story, which is generally for some more stakes and heroism. I don't know if I have an answer for whether to keep it in the canon, because I I guess the answer it's gonna I'm gonna be it's gonna be two to one against me, so it's gonna be you know, this is a split decision uh scorecard here. Yeah, and it's gonna be yes.

Speaker 4 1:28:00

Person panel. Yep.

Speaker 1:28:01

That's not the flaw. It's I think it's the it's the I would I would consider that an advantage.

Speaker 4 1:28:06

Well, it's a flaw in that three is not as good as five, but it is better than two.

Speaker 2 1:28:14

The wordsmith Colin Lundy. Yes. Yeah, no, truly in a way only Colin would describe. Um yes. I would say yes, it does hold up. I think it's extremely relevant even in the present. It accomplishes what it sets out to do, which is to adapt a series of comic book characters into a broad watchable film that's maybe not the most accessible, but it in terms of taste, but it does lend itself to rewatching if you vibe with the overall aesthetic of the film. So I would say yes, I would definitely recommend this to some people. I don't think I'd recommend it to everybody. Like Justin said, who have very different tastes, I would say maybe not for you. People who don't like violence in film, certainly not. But this one, yeah, is one of my favorites. So I think we're sending it up to the rafters. Our very first. Our first society canon. Yay! Okay, I now want to do our society score, which is where we take our three averages letter our our letterbox scores, and we give this film an average for our three three ads. I know mine, which is five, and I know Justin's, which is 2.5. Colin, what five-star rating are you giving this film?

Speaker 4 1:29:43

Well, you're already leading me a little bit there. That was a little bit of a leading question. What five-star rating are you giving this?

Speaker 2 1:29:51

Out of five. We got a lawyer here. Yeah, we got a litigator in the building.

Speaker 4 1:29:57

So uh I uh my rating is four out of five.

Speaker 2 1:30:02

Alright. Math, my strong suit, turns out to an average score from the post-credit society hosts, 3.833, repeating. Well, that's our score. Alright, Colin, you want to sign us off?

Speaker 4 1:30:26

With that, I declare the very first meeting of the Post Credit Society officially adjourned. Next time we'll be watching Palm Springs, a 2020 film from director Max Barbacau. So cue it up, send us your predictions, and stay tuned for our next episode. Want to become an official society member? All you have to do is follow us on social media, find us on Letterboxd at PostCreds Society, and on Instagram at the PostCredits Society. Until then, remember, the credits may have rolled, but the conversation never ends.

Speaker 1 1:31:02

One, two, three, I am the penguin. I'd like to fill her void. Show her my French flipper trip. Politics is about reaching people, touching people, groping people.

Speaker 1:31:29

I was their number one son, and they treated me like number two. Life's a bitch.

Speaker 4 1:31:38

Now so am I.

Speaker 1:31:39

I I was almost sick last night for from I'm not I think it was the bar chili that I had. Because I didn't have that much to drink, and it and it I was feeling some kind of way in my tummy.

Speaker 2 1:31:52

You know what they say about bar chili.

Speaker 1:31:54

But it's like a place that's known for its chili. It wasn't, it wasn't like a it's it's on there as you know, it's famous. They say it on the menu. I don't know. And it's called Barney's Beanery.

Speaker 4 1:32:08

I mean, like you know All I'll say is that the Jonestown Massacre was known for its Kool Aid, and I wouldn't take the Oh god.